Discourse, Identity and the Politics of Insurgency: Nigeria’s Counter-terrorism Strategy

00:00:04: So I was born in Mina, Niger State.

00:00:07: In Nigeria from a very young age iwas already sort of aware stories about political violence including those framed as religious riots or religious extremism rather than thinking about counter-terrorism and the very problem solving way.

00:00:28: Right, there are other questions we can ask.

00:00:30: You know how is counterterrorism made possible in the first instance?

00:00:33: What sort of representations are produced within counterterrorist discourse and what does disenable and so on.

00:00:44: I'm very much aware that The Book And My Other Writings Contribute To Producing A Discourse On Terrorism In Counterterrorism.

00:00:53: So That's Quite Significant.

00:00:54: There Is An Ethical Concern

00:01:08: and welcome to another episode of the Skia & Global Policy podcast featuring scholars from The School Of Government And International Affairs, also known as Skia at Durham University in the UK.

00:01:20: My name is Judith Koch.

00:01:22: I'm a Career Development Fellow in the IPE here at SCIA, and today's guest Dr.

00:01:26: Kudili Shukuma, Assistant Professor of International Security also here with SCIA at Durham University.

00:01:33: previously he was at The University Of East Anglia where he was awarded his PhD in twenty-twenty two.

00:01:39: His research explores the politics of security, terrorism and counterterrorism with a particular focus on Africa.

00:01:47: And an interest in the politics time and space insecurity as work has appeared leading journals including Security Dialogue International Political Sociology critical studies on Terrorism and African security.

00:02:02: And his academic excellence has been recognized by numerous awards including the University of East Anglia's Arts and Humanities Research Community Award in twenty-twenty one.

00:02:12: He is the author of Nigeria's Counterterrorism Strategy, Constructions Of Threat, Response And Identity published by Edinburgh University Press In Twenty-Twenty Five .

00:02:24: It Is This Book And More That We Will Be Discussing Here Today!

00:02:40: Your book engages deeply with questions of positionality and experience.

00:02:44: How has your own background shaped the way you approach terrorism, counter-terrorism in Nigeria?

00:02:50: Particularly in relation to dominant temporal markers like nine eleven versus longer histories of political violence such as Boko Haram's earlier roots?

00:03:00: Thank You Jinnits for having me.

00:03:02: I know it does feel like talking about your book can be daunting but also i guess It is important that you know, we have the space to kind of talk about work because there's always that tendency too.

00:03:14: To let after writing...to kind of let the book take on a life of its own and not really having time to speak about some of the arguments I've developed in my work?

00:03:25: So your question perhaps the place to start from would be nine eleven.

00:03:29: so my experience with nine eleven play significant partly shaping ideas about terrorism right.

00:03:35: So my father lost a friend and business partner in the event, but also the tragic scenes we saw on our TV screens including the twin towers coming down.

00:03:45: all of this had a significant impression to me and you know astronomy makes sense that as young boy living in Nigeria at whilst trying to make sense of that, but from a personal family experience.

00:04:00: But also the news and narratives circulate in media about nine-eleven and kind of the assumptions about terrorism and assumptions about threats.

00:04:12: when we tried to construct it I was also grappling with early experiences, or early experiences but also my knowledge of political violence in Nigeria.

00:04:22: So I was born in Mina, Niger State uh...in Nigeria and i was kind from a very early on exposed to stories of political violent um.. In fact at the time with my bet- I'm not gonna say what year it was.

00:04:35: But by that time when my family had to leave uh..Niger state Mina Uh..and moved into Enugu and later to Lagos state because you know, these situations because of insecurity and political violence.

00:04:49: And I mean examples could go off such as the nineteen eighties we had the Mitocin movement in northern Nigeria.

00:04:58: We also have different kinds of different riots and uprisings in Kano state another part of Northern Nigeria.

00:05:05: so very from very early on these stories of political violence in Nigeria's political history was always repeated, whether by family members or those around me.

00:05:17: So as you can see, nine eleven for me at least even though it is often described as this turning point and international security the day that everything changed And so on It has not been my starting point because from a very young age I stories about political violence including those framed as you know religious riots or religious extremism and so on.

00:05:46: So I guess what the book, well my book tries to do is think through this complex temporalities of violence right?

00:05:54: Including colonial violence.

00:05:58: Okay, thank you so much for contextualizing your trajectory.

00:06:02: So you situate work within but also against existing literature and terrorism in Nigeria especially debates around so-called hard versus soft approaches?

00:06:12: If could just quickly explain to our listeners what these approaches are What do see as their main limitations And what is the framework adds to this.

00:06:22: Thank You For That Question.

00:06:24: I think it's important to start by Highlighting that, you know it's important to recognise the contribution made by this works whether identifying typologies of counter-terrorism.

00:06:37: For what its worth they contribute knowledge about counter terrorism in Nigeria right?

00:06:41: It kind of demonstrates the extent of academic inquiry on the subject because often when we talk some of the cases that have been usually explored.

00:06:54: The more prominent cases include, you know, the Patriot Act in the US or UK Prevent and so on.

00:07:00: So having this body of scholarship around counterterrorism In Nigeria, the post-colonial state, the global side is quite significant.

00:07:09: However... ...the categories often developed in literature are the way which counter terrorism so to speak, conceptualize and sort of in a simplistic binary if you like between hard-and soft approaches often open this literature up at least two criticisms I think.

00:07:32: In the first instance such problem solving orientation often takes for granted assumptions about counter-terrorism or even terrorism itself, including those of the causes of terrorism in Nigeria.

00:07:46: Because what the literature tries to argue at least with my assessment and reading of it is to identify causes of terrorist and particular remedies for terrorism right?

00:08:00: So kind of treats terrorism as an extra discursive phenomenon that can be addressed with particular approaches and so on, whether hard or soft.

00:08:10: So it kind of opens you up to that sort of first criticism about taking for granted how terrorism as a category is mobilized in Nigerian.

00:08:25: On the other hand this particular line of inquiry ignores crucial questions Right.

00:08:31: He knows other questions that we could ask about counterterrorism, rather than thinking about counter-terrorism in a very problem solving way right?

00:08:39: There are other questions we can ask such as what kind of work does he do you know?

00:08:43: how is counter terrorism made possible in the first instance?

00:08:47: and those all the kind of works including questions about representations or sort an identity representations are produced within counterterrorism discourse, for example.

00:09:00: And what does disenable and so on as well as the implications that they entail?

00:09:05: So you're not sure.

00:09:08: I think it forecloses space for critical inquiry right in for wider public interrogation of security norms and practices in Nigeria because limiting or conceptualizing counter terrorism within these two frameworks have hard and soft.

00:09:25: So overall assumes counterterrorism as a particular kind of thing, right?

00:09:29: About addressing an objective threat and so on.

00:09:32: But also at the same time it forecloses other sort more broader questions that we can ask about counter-terrorism.

00:09:40: Yeah

00:09:41: Great thank you And this directly speaks to my next question I think because a central claim in your book is that counter terrorism does not simply respond to threats but actively actually shades how Nigeria is perceived both domestically and internationally.

00:09:56: Can you unpack this for our listeners?

00:09:58: How do these policies reinforce particular images or narratives, I should say of the Nigerian state and

00:10:06: society?".

00:10:07: Right thanks to that question!

00:10:10: My book begins by...or tries to move away from this Russian-leased analysis of counterterrorism.

00:10:17: right ...to examine like i said and what effect it entails.

00:10:25: The official discourse on counterterrorism which I examine in the book looks at how Nigeria is constructed, right?

00:10:33: And Nigeria's constructed in relation to the treaded faces-and in this case Boko Haram as well other equivalences including the Lake Chad for example and countries in that region.

00:10:45: Nigeria has consistently produced or portrayed within this discourse, this official discourse as a democratic and progressive country right?

00:10:54: And these does a lot of things.

00:10:55: A couple of things.

00:10:57: on the one hand it reproduces a particular idea or specific idea of Nigerian society as ethnically and religiously diverse but also you know other social economic uh as well as socio-political problems that constitute Nigeria as a post-colonial or the developing nation like poverty, unemployment and so on.

00:11:18: So it will produce particular idea of Nigeria.

00:11:21: but in other hand present counterterrorism is a remedy if you would like to address these problems addressing ethnic or religious division in terms national unity also for ensuring development and democracy sort of thing going on in terms of the representation of Nigeria but also, uh this solution to a particular Nigerian state if you like.

00:11:50: The discourse also reinforces assumptions about Nigeria's territory or territoriality and identity And In this case, in relations with Nigeria's borders and in relation to ungoverned spaces in the Lake Chart Basin Right, so that's the construction of not just the Nigerian society but also Nigeria's borders and reinforcing a particular identity of Nigeria as a democratic kind of progressive country.

00:12:16: Albeit you know this challenges it faces including Boko Ram.

00:12:23: And lastly within us discourse The Nigerian state in particular is portrayed in different ways As a strong state, you know, capable of addressing the issues of terrorism within its territory.

00:12:37: But also as a state... You know?

00:12:40: ...as it developed mental states or was a State kind in an emerging States if you like.

00:12:48: As an emerging post-colonial developing state that is getting there right but needs to be time and so on.

00:12:55: So you find all this different construction of the state itself.

00:12:59: Some of it reinforces problematic assumptions about, uh...about- about a State in the Global South more generally and specifically about States In Africa And here I'm talking about things such as field states, weak states.

00:13:13: all those assumptions About statehood Uh..in Africa You often find out reinforced within this discourse.

00:13:21: On the other hand there's also you know A projection or portrayal of Nigeria is a strong state And they sent tails kind of more military power, the more user force and all that to make Nigeria sort of embody this identity as a strong state.

00:13:38: Great thank you.

00:13:39: so onto your intellectual journey.

00:13:42: So while it is a constructivist discursive analysis For us, you come originally from a more realist tradition.

00:13:49: What led you towards the critical constructivist approach to counter-terrorism?

00:13:54: And which role in particular did thinkers like Bakawi and Lafay play for your

00:13:59: work?".

00:14:00: Yeah it is true that I was introduced to international relations this way... ...and often when i say this sometimes people find me a bit confusing or there's a bit perplexing.. When I said that I used to be a realist or a new release, more specifically structural realism.

00:14:19: But that was also because of the way in which I was introduced to IR and means through this so-called big debates.

00:14:25: you know?

00:14:25: The first debate...the second debate and so on.

00:14:28: liberalism really seemed the neo-neo debate as well as all the mainstream approaches in the field.

00:14:33: or the so called mainstream approach is realism, liberalism, constructivism etc.

00:14:39: but i should say there's particular has of course been questioned and you know we're a bit more reflexive in how we represent the feud or reconstruct its origins.

00:14:50: But this way, one which I was introduced to IR sort made sense or resonated with me somewhat especially coming from Nigeria having lived in Nigeria.

00:15:03: The States were always at the centre Of life of political life, but also kind of everyday life.

00:15:09: right you wake up in the morning You're in the streets.

00:15:13: There's one form of you know police brutality or another?

00:15:16: You know wherever this day is present, you know there's something happening Wherever the state it's also not present.

00:15:23: You know, there's always something happening.

00:15:24: So there's all these.

00:15:25: you know This discussion around the states how to make it work better How do they stay trying to look better and so on until fall.

00:15:33: So coming to this idea of the state and you know, material power made sense or resonated with me.

00:15:42: However during my PhD a couple years many as now I started reading other kinds of theories, other literatures.

00:15:59: so when the shift happened for I was reading Tariq Bakawi's work in Mark Lafay.

00:16:07: There wrote an article, it was published in Security Dialogue in the year of two thousand and six.

00:16:14: And It was about a post-colonial moment in security studies that solved the arguments on paper and they were sort of arguing or developed the critique of categories we use or categories developed and how this sort of applies in different contexts, so on.

00:16:31: And you know the western-centric framing and composition of the feud with international relations but also critical security studies.

00:16:44: I picked up from that becoming a bit more reflexive about the assumptions I make, terrorism or counter-terrorism and in most of other issues that i was interested.

00:17:00: Now having read Bacaui's work and so on also reading works by people such as Lee Jarvis you know Richard Jackson Mohamed Ayub Stoddward Realism Seba Groovorgio and this kind goes on and on.

00:17:16: you know, the assumptions I make about or we make about security and the relationship between knowledge and power.

00:17:24: It became almost self-evident for me that this things really do matter And they have implications right?

00:17:35: Political but also social implications.

00:17:39: In a nutshell these works sort of encourage to pay attention to categories in frameworks and so become a bit more, if you like skeptical of the origins or reproduction and implications or assumptions in categories we use in terrorism research.

00:17:57: Great thank you so much!

00:17:58: So one of your most striking ideas is the notion of counter-terrorism as a farm icon both a remedy and poison.

00:18:08: can you explain how this ambivalence plays out into Nigerian context?

00:18:12: And what it revealed about?

00:18:16: Thanks for that question.

00:18:18: However, I like to use the notion of counterterrorism as a pharmacone to kind of distinguish or designate counter-terrorism and as a phenomenon often exceed what is given to be seen right?

00:18:32: So on one hand it's portrayed in this case by states.

00:18:35: are those officials involving articulating counter terrorism policies as something that is necessary, given the seemingly existential nature of the threat posed by terrorism.

00:18:46: So on one hand it's necessary but also in other hands you know... It does all the work including identity construction and producing representations about Nigeria.

00:18:59: its fears are or what Nigeria should fear.

00:19:03: so there always this two-ness to counterterrorism On the one hand, presented as a remedy but also on the other it can become somewhat and at least in fact I would argue poison us if you like.

00:19:19: Atleast even if yourself do an imminent critique of problems solving literature on counterterrorism in Nigeria you know they still identify issues of Manjaro's counter terrorism approach whether in relation to the use of military power, military force and kind of.

00:19:37: uh the implications of that.

00:19:38: So there is always when we speak about counter terrorism on one hand it's often described as a remedy but also on another side there are a whole lot of issues linked into it.

00:19:51: I think its really not.

00:19:55: I don't really see this as a pension per se or it's to highlight how, you know using the word pharmacone.

00:20:01: To highlight when ever is presented and counter terrorism is discussed It always exceeds what is presented to us right?

00:20:10: Or what its intended to represent?

00:20:13: Its always exceed that.

00:20:14: there something also going on Ryan does other kind of work.

00:20:20: we should pay attention.

00:20:21: Thank

00:20:22: you.

00:20:22: So let me put a bit on the political economy dimension, if counterterrorism is understood as a discursive construction of threat and identity how should we then account for the material drivers right such as the political economic of the Nigerian state that generate insurgency in shape coercive responses?

00:20:42: Do you see these conditions as external to discourse or are they themselves politicized?

00:20:51: Not at all, I do not treat these as extra discursive or treat discourse as ideational which can be disentangled from material structural conditions.

00:21:04: Rather my approach to discourse prioritises the core constitution and meaning making by prioritising a core constitution about materials but also are ideal you know, focuses on meaning making.

00:21:19: For example how the discourse of specific conditions enable for example how to discuss around poverty or unemployment for example, enable reshapel facilitated particular responses like how they discuss around social-political factors such as marginalisation for example exclusion and so on... ...how they are often invoked by state officials line to legitimise particular actions or interventions.

00:21:49: I do not really see these things as separate, as discourse focusing on one thing and there's also another kind of extra-discussive reality somewhere there but rather how they are co-constituted in meaning produced right?

00:22:07: And looking at it is constructed.

00:22:13: So in our current moment, what do you think is the particular relevance of your book?

00:22:19: Like for whom?

00:22:20: scholars policymakers all the wider public.

00:22:23: For who Do You Think This Work Matters Most And Why?

00:22:27: It's a really good question and one that often get asked also outside of the context off my book.

00:22:35: right just in relation to my work.

00:22:37: more broadly what do you think your work is relevant for?

00:22:43: and so on?

00:22:45: And it's a hard one to answer because I can say one thing, but like i said when you write something whether a book an article or whatever.

00:22:55: It sort of takes on the life of its own.

00:22:58: You know For example during Feudwalk in Nigeria In twenty-twenty two I was with the Minister of Justice, the Attorney General and Federation.

00:23:11: And you know saying to me oh i've read your article on The Headers & Farmers and that's a bit surprised because in my mind...you know..I didn't expect anyone could read anything!

00:23:22: Of course it is available open access but I did not expect.

00:23:28: what kind of work do I have to appeal to audience if they like right?

00:23:35: Do critical works with some questions that might find a bit discomforting and so on.

00:23:41: So when the minister said he read my work, I was pleased of course for reading my book but also it just made me increasingly unsure because in my mind When i write including The Book...I always try to speak to Of course the literature that Im engaging with to make an academic contribution and so on, but also more broadly sort of the wider public.

00:24:12: because especially in terrorism research I'm very much aware that the book and my other writings contribute producing a discourse on terrorism and counter-terrorism.

00:24:25: So that's quite significant right?

00:24:27: And you know there is an ethical concern.

00:24:29: it contributes to that.

00:24:34: We're all part of this.

00:24:35: if you like terror talk and then the book is not removed from in that.

00:24:41: so I'm always aware of that, And In That Way i have to think more or try to align my discourse on My work with The wider public can sort of engage even that public discourse.

00:24:57: but also at The League Future And perhaps, and I don't prioritise this.

00:25:04: Perhaps you know policy meekers but i really do not prioritise them in that they should put on record or i dont.

00:25:12: But again anybody can read whatever they want to write.

00:25:17: Yeah

00:25:18: obviously great.

00:25:19: it didn´t go unnoticed for them as well right.

00:25:21: so its great if they read your work especially because is still brilliant.

00:25:26: So yeah thanks so much.

00:25:29: finally Can you tell us a bit more about your ongoing and future research project?

00:25:34: Thanks for that.

00:25:36: Well, I was really happy talking about my book but this question also prompts me to talk about another exciting things that have been working on.

00:25:49: so i'm currently researching terrorism trials in Nigeria.

00:25:53: I've written a couple of articles on that published in various journals and at the moment, I'm working on a book project on that research on terrorism trials.

00:26:06: One because i think is really significant.

00:26:08: you know there's not much especially within the literature has been written on the prosecution of Boko Haram suspect.

00:26:24: And I think it's an interesting, at least from the data that have been going through the court cases and case files is really significant.

00:26:38: but also there was a significance because during this trial they were often referred to as secret trials right?

00:26:46: Because no access to media or wider public and these trials were held in military contourment, even though they are criminal trials often kind of sort-of overseen by or superintended by the military which raises all kinds of procedural but also substantive questions.

00:27:10: And all the records from the trials where classified until a certain point...and somehow I happened to be an injury aware that it was declassified.

00:27:19: so Yeah, it was quite important for me to have a look at them and collect some of these.

00:27:28: So I'll be working on the book project in Australia... ...on terrorism trials in Nigeria trying to bring the difference because so far i've written about three or four articles just looking at the trials from different angles including from perspective of prescription of terrorist of Boko Ram but also you know, the use of legal evidence in a trial and so on.

00:27:52: But what I want to do with this book is bring all these together, paint if your like...a picture off-the-trial.

00:28:01: So that's one project to look forward too.

00:28:05: Then also i started..i've been working on more than human actors in counterterrorism focusing specifically on leg chat basing.

00:28:14: I have been walking under for about four years now or around that and yeah, I still want to do some work on the lake child.

00:28:26: One is to acknowledge just the transnational dimension of cantoteros in this region but also more specifically to centre the complexity of actors that shape cantoteroes because often we talk about counter-terrorism, not just in the leg chat or Nigeria but more broadly.

00:28:49: We have to think of particular kinds of actors and here were talking about human actor's line.

00:28:55: so whether it is states or civil society or even vigilante groups and so on and so forth.

00:29:01: But I'm showing similar context.

00:29:06: you know what we find as a complex interaction either way between human and non-human actors such as lakes for example, forests animals like elephants etc.

00:29:22: And I think yeah just paying more attention to the psychology of actors if you like that shape counterterrorism is quite important at least from me.

00:29:33: it's quite interesting i think.

00:29:36: so those two projects have taken much of my time in the next months.

00:29:41: yes Yeah, well thanks.

00:29:44: Thanks for that!

00:29:45: They sound super intriguing.

00:29:46: I have so many questions but i reserve them later down the line.

00:29:51: thank you so much uh for talking about your book um on the podcast and yeah thanks.