Methods, Doubt and Discovery: Research Design in Politics and International Relations

00:00:03: We started thinking, well how can we teach students research methods in a more inclusive

00:00:06: way?

00:00:10: Am I falling back on the patterns of my discipline and methodological approach to get myself into like... ...a sense of certainty rather than allowing myself to continue to question.

00:00:23: A good sort-of say in passing.

00:00:25: You know maybe you should write a message book about this And i was like yeah whatever!

00:00:29: Then here we are.

00:00:30: Hello

00:00:31: and welcome to the latest book

00:00:33: discussion

00:00:34: hosted by Global Policy Journal,

00:00:36: and The

00:00:37: School of Government & International Affairs here

00:00:40: at Durham University

00:00:41: in the UK

00:00:42: also known

00:00:43: as SCIA.

00:00:44: My name is Judith Koch And I'm a career development fellow an international political economy here at SCIA Dr.

00:01:00: Anouk Richtering and Dr.

00:01:02: Maraike Schomeros.

00:01:04: Anouk Richtering is an associate professor at Durham University working in the intersection of development, economics and political economy.

00:01:13: Her research focuses on conflict governance and the micro-level dynamics of violence incorporation.

00:01:19: using quantitative and experimental methods she explores how institutions end economic conditions shape patterns of conflict instability particularly in fragile and conflict affected settings.

00:01:31: her work spans topics such as a relationship between mining and violent conflict, including so-called blood diamonds, civilian protection in South Sudan.

00:01:40: And the effectiveness of drone strikes targeting terrorist leaders.

00:01:45: Marika Shomarus is a political scientist and practitioner whose work bridges research policy and

00:01:51: practice.

00:01:52: She focuses on conflict, legitimacy and governance in context shaped by fragility and displacement.

00:01:58: Currently vice president at the Buzara Center she brings behavioral science into.

00:02:06: Previously, Mareike Schomeros had senior roles at ODI and extensive collaborations with international organizations.

00:02:14: And policy communities.

00:02:15: in.

00:02:16: today we will be discussing their new book research design and politics an International Relations published by Sage in February.

00:02:23: twenty-twenty six.

00:02:25: Anouk and Marika

00:02:26: welcome to the podcast.

00:02:30: so your new book makes research essentially come alive?

00:02:33: So I want to ask you first how did The Idea for this Book Come Alive?

00:02:39: So, I think we have to go back at least fifteen years ago.

00:02:44: So Marek and I were working together in an interdisciplinary research program studying conflict.

00:03:02: The best way to start a collaboration is just spending almost twenty-four hours of day together in the country where there's not so much other entertainment, rather than doing your research and talking about your research.

00:03:16: So we were working at South Sudan.

00:03:18: We are working on a civilian protection militia and civilian protection Militia against the Lord Resistance Army And basically every day The guess has that we stayed in and went away to do our own thing, but were studying the same.

00:03:34: We're both studying civil and protection munitions.

00:03:38: And then when you come back at night and eat raisin beans or talk through what it was today I think even as a very young student i had sort of gotten into research lane one particular type And I'd sort of forgotten that other lanes also existed.

00:04:01: So my research was very, you know... My supervisor is an economist and he's a very posivist.

00:04:08: so my research always about what the cause for this outcome?

00:04:13: If your going to collect data or sample it must be random!

00:04:18: Never even question So, and then I saw my wife come back.

00:04:22: And i thought oh wow there's also other ways to do research!

00:04:24: They're very different but they are super interesting.

00:04:27: of course every night when we sat around the fire eating our rice and beans were thinking okay how do you make this?

00:04:35: How did it really work together on this?

00:04:38: And, you know I grew up as a PhD student no longer green PhD students starting teaching research methods to students at various institutions London School of Economics Oxford now at Durham and then i also saw that in my own students as well.

00:04:52: That they also take a research lane and never look the deciding end.

00:04:56: just see what other types of research exist.

00:04:59: so come to office hours when say oh wow this is good research!

00:05:05: So Dan, we started thinking well how can you teach students research methods in a more inclusive way?

00:05:12: Yeah and I guess Anouk was highlighting that.

00:05:16: We had different worlds on the research projects but were at very similar point of our intellectual and researcher journey even where we are heading with our PhDs.

00:05:27: So we were in very kind of formative research at times without maybe necessarily knowing that.

00:05:33: And much like Anouk came into this thinking, oh well I always have to look for causality and i have to sample randomly on the ethnographic anthropological side of research...I was so convinced only the research that I was doing was going tell us what things are really.

00:05:53: I think my counter to Anouk's, well we always have to look for causality was...I really learned in these long conversations over campfires this question your own level of certainty based on the kind of data that you were receiving.

00:06:09: So really i had never thought about What does my data tell me and with what level of certainty can I state something?

00:06:20: i was so conditioned to saying, well but this is what people said.

00:06:23: And This Is What I Heard!

00:06:24: And I observed it.

00:06:25: So this must be like.

00:06:28: Not only did these conversations Tell Me that It's Really really helpful To question your Level Of Certainty in Research revelatory moment waiting to happen if you shine as many lights as possible on a particular problem.

00:06:45: And it doesn't need to have the debate along these, well but my method does this and your methods do this which is really I think what we try to capture very much in.

00:06:54: Yes!

00:06:55: What Anouk mentioned that even though We cherish these moments and discussions are something Very unique and special for our relationship and collaboration It also turns out there were not that unique right?

00:07:07: That students Researchers really struggle with this all the time, well what can I say about my data?

00:07:15: Am i falling back on patterns of my discipline and methodological approach to get myself into a sense of certainty rather than allowing me continue to question.

00:07:25: We started talking more publicly over years after And I think actually kind of jokingly after one of those public lectures.

00:07:33: Anu did sort-of say in passing, you know maybe we should write a message book about this and i was like yeah uh huh whatever.

00:07:39: Then here we are!

00:07:40: That's exactly what we've done.

00:07:42: thank you so much.

00:07:44: So speaking off continuing to question right?

00:07:47: In times of AI why do we need a book on research methods when it is quite easy for students also to just navigate, chat GBT and ask okay I have this data what would you suggest.

00:08:01: And how especially in times of AI?

00:08:03: How do you teach students research methods?

00:08:06: yeah i think there's so many entry points into thinking about it.

00:08:11: we think a lot right.

00:08:13: What is that actually is the benefit of a student, not over seasoned researcher who has decided to dedicate their life.

00:08:21: To finding things out right?

00:08:23: You don't really need to convince them very much that it's really useful to learn about the process of research.

00:08:28: but what does it take to convince someone who theoretically could just put a research question and get an LLM to answer it in whatever quality and depths?

00:08:39: And I think The way we think about this isn't two ways one to really highlight process and to really highlighted.

00:08:48: actually learning is not something that happens in the output.

00:08:53: It's a very famous kind of saying or philosophy, students now need to understand what they think about their final essay from AI.

00:09:14: is that, of course certainly right now.

00:09:18: any moment where AI and social sciences discussed always talks about this need for humans to be in the loop.

00:09:24: So you can't just leave it alone to AI but those humans in the loops we have a real understanding.

00:09:30: what are the processes that AI can support with?

00:09:33: How do I assess some of these answers?

00:09:35: even if the human in a loop still needs training and needs honing their craft, right?

00:09:42: This is like exercise.

00:09:44: You really learn you get better by doing it And so we highlight this process.

00:09:50: We also highlight that this process is painful.

00:09:52: But for me what's important now are obviously emerging fledgling research.

00:10:00: Anything on the impact of AI on us as humans is fledgled at point-in time.

00:10:05: But there's a suspicion that the widespread use of AI amongst students or learning populations will increase mental health issues because it removes so much friction from our life and tension, and challenge.

00:10:18: And of course It turns out That we do need friction intention and challenge Because We Do Need The Sense Of Accomplishment That Kind Of Makes Up For The Harder Times?

00:10:28: Actually We Don't Get That Sense Of accomplishment Without Having Gone Through The Hardier Times User.

00:10:31: You Can'T Just Replace It.

00:10:33: So I don't.

00:10:35: I think it's not a bad idea to also say, you know what?

00:10:38: This is not just good for your brain.

00:10:40: To take yourself through this process might also be good For your mind and your soul.

00:10:46: Another answer to the question of like why do we need to learn research in times of AI?

00:10:52: as to ask What does research?

00:10:55: And fundamentally research is creation.

00:10:57: new knowledge so needs to be knew needs to Be original.

00:11:00: on that We can ask ourselves.

00:11:01: So what does an AI or large language model do just to take knowledge and use it predict the most likely answer.

00:11:10: Is that new, is that original?

00:11:12: Well...to a very limited degree!

00:11:15: And if you can try it-you go through your favorite LLM and ask Can You Be Original?

00:11:20: We'll tell you no I can't.

00:11:22: i'm a predictive model so cannot be truly original in the sense humans can.

00:11:27: Great.

00:11:28: Thank you so much.

00:11:29: We will get to talk about the pain of research later down the line, but there are obviously a lot of textbooks covering research methods and research design in politics or in the social sciences unique features, and one of the book's most distinctive features really is beginning with political issues like climate change or violent conflict before moving to methods.

00:11:57: What motivated that choice?

00:11:59: And how would you say does it change how students or researchers really think about designing a project?

00:12:05: I think what motivated it ultimately was, as so often in research the power of observation because neither Anouk and I in our teaching have encountered many students.

00:12:16: Maybe they're very occasional one who rocks up on their first day off class says i am so excited about learning data collection.

00:12:24: but students would pick social sciences political subjects IR But also the kind of adjacent Sciences Conflict Studies International Development Sociology.

00:12:34: They usually come and say, I picked this because i'm really interested in inequality.

00:12:38: I am really interested In social justice!

00:12:43: And they don't yet have the kind of vocabulary to say when you're saying that You want to understand it better?

00:12:53: So It seems like an obvious entry point for your student of politics at Jason Social Sciences.

00:13:01: You are interested in these issues and here is how you can learn, understand these issues much better.

00:13:08: So it really also showed us that we do need to give students this these tools almost to sharpen the problem that they're looking at, right?

00:13:19: Because when somebody comes and says I'm really interested in inequality so now i need do a couple of interviews then understand inequality better.

00:13:26: It's a very useful methodological discussion.

00:13:28: if you have vocabulary say but what are trying find out when it come to inequality?

00:13:34: What is this?

00:13:35: Do we ask people or listen for data?

00:13:39: because inequality isn't subject as such.

00:13:44: So we do use two pieces of vocabulary a lot to describe this in the book.

00:13:49: And there's continuous questioning, just continues looking at issues that strike you as peculiar interesting surprising in the world through this question attitude which we call The Research Mindset.

00:14:04: but then take your research mindset for work and take it into something.

00:14:09: Yeah,

00:14:11: and that research process is really helpful because if you want to study inequality or climate change Where do we even start?

00:14:17: It's really overwhelming.

00:14:18: I think it's all too easy to then sit in front of your computer And think i wanna study inequality on climate change but what do i even Do?

00:14:25: so this is why We have the research processes as a sort of unifying framework In our book.

00:14:30: when we say okay let's make this tractable by making research A series Of choices And these choices will be familiar to many researchers, right?

00:14:37: We haven't come up with them as such but we also haven't seen a quite formula in this way.

00:14:45: These are the choices... This is a flow chart almost that you have to go through and these choice are epistemology.

00:14:51: what knowledge do we think we can create?

00:14:53: it's possible to create research question That is of course informed by theory literature Research design case selection data collection date analysis.

00:15:01: Again, not new choices but we think new putting all these choices together in one chapter.

00:15:07: One figure even!

00:15:10: But then of course like telling is not doing right?

00:15:14: Telling some other research processes alike doesn't actually necessarily empower them to do it themselves.

00:15:20: You can watch me swim or you like that.

00:15:22: they don't teach how to swim.

00:15:24: Or you could play the piano if you want.

00:15:27: I watch people play video games on YouTube all the time.

00:15:31: And still very bothered playing this very same video game, right?

00:15:34: So telling is not doing so.

00:15:36: we want to make it of course then eventually when students actually go away and act under interest in study climate change and child defiling conflict.

00:15:46: but We have a step in the middle.

00:15:48: where are we sort of show The research process and a choice that our made over-and-over again by putting In the book examples

00:15:57: of

00:15:58: published research from different authors, not from us.

00:16:02: From different authors and we make the research process come alive by showing over-and-over again.

00:16:06: what were the choices that these authors made when they studied inequality?

00:16:09: That this author's made one new study climate change And for each topic We have a very different set of choices right?

00:16:17: so If I first take violent conflict as an example For instance that leads to knowledge on what causes rebels to rule, rather than purely be bandits.

00:16:34: And then we have another set of research choices by different authors that ask how do people become constructed as the targets for violence?

00:16:42: Both extremely interesting ways to create knowledge about violent conflict but a set

00:16:50: Great, thank you so much.

00:16:52: And to put this a bit more into practice really or to illustrate that for our listeners like what would be an example of this?

00:16:59: It's obviously not too much of a stretch when we're thinking about current political developments... ...to think off and come up with the political dilemma So probably wouldn't even know where to start.

00:17:10: but What would it be?

00:17:11: a case that especially illustrates this moment of connection between design and real-world politics.

00:17:18: Could you give us some examples?

00:17:20: One example that comes back across the book a lot is from IR, International Relations.

00:17:26: It's Finland joining The NATO.

00:17:29: or Marek is going to laugh at me because I keep saying THE NATO and she keeps deleting THE front of the... She must have saved three hundred words on her book by deleting the word THE in front of NATO.

00:17:40: Anyway!

00:17:41: Finland Joining NATO.

00:17:44: We use this as an example for the book.

00:17:48: A Lot Of course, because it's quite surprising that after like decades of Finland refusing to join NATO then all of a sudden chose to do so.

00:17:57: So let's take that as an example.

00:17:59: very interesting example but we wonder what do you learn by studying about Finland?

00:18:05: Studying Finland joining NATO?

00:18:07: What knowledge are we creating?

00:18:09: Are we creating knowledge about Finland and exactly happening in Finland?

00:18:15: And if so, what other cases do we create knowledge about?

00:18:19: Do We Create Knowledge About Military Alliances in general.

00:18:22: But International Organizations In General?

00:18:24: that may seem very similar but of course there are many more international organizations than military alliances.

00:18:31: So in doing That We Are Learning Something About Case Selection.

00:18:35: Right What Case Am I Selecting?

00:18:36: and For All Purpose.

00:18:38: But Were Also Learning About Something Deeper Which Is Namely Epistemology And this is possibly the most abstract, most vaguely meaningful term that we encounter in research.

00:18:52: Epistemology's a type of knowledge you think can create and again it sounds incredibly abstract.

00:18:59: but actually taking the case of Finland joining NATO or whether they teach us something about Finland also about cases beyond Finland tells us something our epistemologies are beliefs.

00:19:12: At one extreme, we might be a positivist and think that the world is governed by certain probabilistic laws.

00:19:23: So if country experience greater level of external threat in this case Russia being a great external threat to NATO then they're more likely join military alliance.

00:19:35: so in sitting feeling being threatened by Russia We are also learning about other military alliances And this portrays my belief in the type of knowledge that we can create, namely I can create some kind of knowledge about a probabilistic law.

00:19:48: At the other extreme it might be very interpretive vests and as you say well what means humans gift to something?

00:19:59: These humans include research themselves.

00:20:02: so on this case the case of Finland joining NATO were not asking.

00:20:07: we're actually sticking to the case of Finland.

00:20:10: We are creating knowledge about the case in Finland, maybe only and saying what meaning that people in Finland finished by minister or people living at a border area over Russia?

00:20:18: What meaning did these people give to Finland joining

00:20:22: NATO?".

00:20:23: So again...we started with a case on case selection.

00:20:28: That is maybe a quite mechanical process, but it actually also teaches something about our beliefs.

00:20:33: About the knowledge that we think we can create and that motivates a lot of our research choices.

00:20:39: And I think what's useful in teaching this to students Is yes you can break down Something that seems like a big abstract topic with maybe seemingly obvious explanations why did Finland join NATO at this particular point in time, but actually for teaching and for going through these choices within the research process.

00:20:57: it allows students to say.

00:20:59: But wait a second if I have this phenomenon that i'm looking at Finland joining NATO?

00:21:04: But also I have not endless believe can create some knowledge that will help me answer a particular question here.

00:21:17: So if you're, for example... If you want the very positivist answer to what goes on there then you might need large data sets and not have access.

00:21:29: but it doesn't mean You can spend an afternoon as a student interviewing Finnish people on the street.

00:21:40: Obviously that is not a random sample, it doesn't go into any... It doesn't establish causality but it can tell you something very specific and interesting about the essence of maybe a country feeling where threat has come to its doorsteps in how citizens feel about this.

00:21:57: And then you might say well I have access to official documents.

00:22:01: Can i relate what i hear from sentiment to what I see in the documents, toward extent?

00:22:07: has the government taken into account narratives and discourse within their population?

00:22:13: or hasn't because actually the Government was on a track of joining NATO much longer than this particular moment in time.

00:22:19: All of sudden the knowledge you create wouldn't be.

00:22:22: here is why Finland joined NATO.

00:22:25: but Here is how sometimes geopolitical long-term shifts then culminate in a particular moment that citizens only experience, but we shouldn't necessarily be driven by the assumption what becomes of reason for such an important political decision.

00:22:43: So you have these... I guess the way i think about it making these choices obvious to yourself, asking a question to your self.

00:22:54: What is it that I think i can create here?

00:22:57: as knowledge really allows you To have this reflective open mindset That also offers a lot of possibilities and thats part of the research mindset And for me takes us back.

00:23:10: You know, what does it mean to be a student and to be learning today?

00:23:13: And I think that is such a crucial part of this.

00:23:16: To recognize like you can take your own thinking into on the walk in two unexpected places.

00:23:24: go wow!

00:23:25: i never thought about this In This Way.

00:23:27: there's no more beautiful thing in Learning and in researching saying...I Never Thought About This In This Particular way.

00:23:34: so The point is that we really want to stress, even with something that seems such a monolithic topic Finland joining NATO.

00:23:41: Researchers students people always have options on how they tackle this and like maybe also Have options on How They Then Choose Where To Get Their Data From Who To Ask And So On.

00:23:54: You know because Well That's A Whole Other Topic In Itself.

00:23:57: I See Anouk Nodding On This One.

00:24:00: No Absolutely Like People You Have Options.

00:24:04: That implies choices, which is great because there's a lot to choose.

00:24:07: But it also implies an obligation when you actually have make these choices and I have to make the choices in consistent way.

00:24:14: So as Marika said one other thing that the example of Finland joining NATO illustrates Is well once we establish what?

00:24:21: We want to know And how he wanna know if we ever plan on action our research design then The question is How do we collect data?

00:24:29: again our choice there as to be consistent with our choices earlier, right?

00:24:35: If we're asking does a threat by Russia make people living in border areas of Finland more likely don't want to join NATO.

00:24:43: That implies that we wanna generalize the bigger population and Finns living on the border area.

00:24:48: so logical choice then is to sample at random end up with a representative sample, whereas if we're asking well what are the myriad ways in which fins are giving meaning to finland joining NATO then actually Myriad is the keyword here, then.

00:25:04: We want to have a diversity in perspective so that we might seek out diverse respondents and you might not sample at random or even before hand decide how big our samples are going be.

00:25:15: but what we might strive for is saturation.

00:25:19: Just keep asking a diversity of fins until conceptually no finnish telling us anything new.

00:25:25: So very different sampling strategy Different choice but a choice that can be consistent with previous choices in the research process, and that is really useful way to look at it.

00:25:37: And less... A more useful way we would argue than having yes-no discussion on whether should we sample random or not?

00:25:45: So, let's move from the specific case studies a bit more towards disciplines.

00:25:50: I met all different methods within international relations and political science.

00:25:55: How did you decide which designs captured the essence of both disciplines' research best today?

00:26:01: Were there any methods you debated including or excluding as well?

00:26:07: Oh!

00:26:08: I love how you phrased this question captured the essence, because we thought about this a lot.

00:26:17: and of course capturing the essence is also one of the research designs that we put in there which is phenomenology.

00:26:24: Which it's very unusual to have an textbook on politics and AR but I'll talk more about that for another second.

00:26:30: But i wanted start answering your question by saying well you know, it's a textbook so obviously its already quite thick.

00:26:38: So we had to make some choices and started also by thinking well what are some prominent research designs that students will likely encounter have heard about?

00:26:49: That was definitely one criteria.

00:26:51: We wanted to have good mix of epistemologies that underpin these research design.

00:26:56: And then really important for us is feasibility.

00:26:59: So we didn't propose a research design that we know as an undergraduate student, you wouldn't ever be able to implement or even as a graduate students.

00:27:09: Those were important considerations.

00:27:11: but then we also thought about actually what is the useful research designed for our students to think about and what it's little bit unusual?

00:27:18: Going back to your question of what captures the essence, phenomenology is one those things.

00:27:23: Phenomenology maybe the most prominent version.

00:27:28: qualitative research asking this very seemingly, very simple questions.

00:27:32: What is it like to be in the situation?

00:27:34: what does It Like To Have This Experience?

00:27:37: and for some reason in sociology people talk about phenomenological research a lot but in political science that term isn't used very much there.

00:27:45: so somehow In Political Science often Qualitative Research just becomes qualitative research.

00:27:50: But of course they are Very fine differences between The thinking behind different qualitative design.

00:27:56: So we wanted introduce the language particularly so that students can recognize when is something actually researching, what it's like?

00:28:05: What are the essence of this experience versus... ...what kind of shared practice a group has here which is much more suited to ethnography.

00:28:17: Particularly on the phonological part.

00:28:19: Anuk will talk about other research designs.

00:28:21: It was also striking for me.

00:28:24: even in applied research policy-relevant research phenomenology is becoming more and more important, because so many seemingly very solid evidence-based policies haven't worked or people have found them quite alienating.

00:28:39: So asking these questions of how did this well meaning evidence based policy on for example vaccinations become so divisive?

00:28:48: What does the experience like do not get vaccinated versus those who do.

00:28:54: What's the essence of this relationship that people have with vaccination?

00:28:58: So I think for a lot of these seemingly fluffy questions, there are deeply political questions that really benefit from having a research design like this is unusual to see in a textbook like this.

00:29:12: but yeah and others... Well we did also discuss what to exclude.

00:29:22: What did we throw out?

00:29:23: So, we endlessly went back and forth.

00:29:26: Not necessarily should be exclude case studies because obviously that was never on the table but we did endlessly go back-and-forth.

00:29:34: is a case study or research design or is it not?

00:29:38: And that sort of came down to question.

00:29:39: Is there just enough to pick a case and does make a research designer plan an action actually do?

00:29:47: Other research designs also pick cases and they don't call themselves the case city.

00:29:51: What is a case study?

00:29:53: And does it?

00:29:53: back-and-forth, The chapter changed place in book five hundred times.

00:29:57: It went from twenty thousand when to ten thousand where them back again anyway.

00:30:01: In the end we can debate until the cows come home about what he's right.

00:30:06: But in the end We thought actually let's forget about word as write what his most helpful students.

00:30:12: And we teach students a lot about case studies and case selection, for instance.

00:30:16: We say you might select comparative cases maybe in most different case right?

00:30:22: Cases that are similar as possible but they experience a different outcome.

00:30:26: Maybe there is the most similar case The two of these cases ours or our most different Case cases that aren't different as possible But they experienced similar outcomes.

00:30:36: why it's not?

00:30:38: And students put a lot of time in selecting these cases, and then they sit behind their computer saying ha my case I selected research can begin.

00:30:45: Then they said behind the computer think them what?

00:30:48: They come to office sign say oh i've selected suitable cases but now wouldn't do so.

00:30:52: you sort of need something else.

00:30:53: he still needs that plan of action.

00:30:55: You still need that research design on.

00:30:56: this is why we made case selection like an another research design But it chaptering its own right because everyone needs to select cases with just selecting cases doesn't necessarily give you power.

00:31:07: Then we started thinking, well what do a lot of comparative cases actually do?

00:31:12: And the answer is already in the title which they do compare.

00:31:15: They see two things go together Do an explanation and now it's going to go together In a systematic way.

00:31:20: It costs two ks, three ks four.

00:31:23: And then what did we call that?

00:31:25: so We ended up calling that covariation which is a term that's most more commonly used, maybe in statistics.

00:31:32: And what people found and some of our viewers found quite controversial to include because they saw co-variations as correlation does not have research design on its.

00:31:40: it's meant to be only qualitative.

00:31:42: other people can touch.

00:31:44: but we thought actually well too compare in the sea of things systematically go together.

00:31:48: one that has not come for this quote just you could do that.

00:31:52: I know whole number away.

00:31:53: so he did end up including covariance or research designed For people who do case studies in a qualitative manner, but of course also as a quantitative can Also be applied and quantitative context.

00:32:06: And last But not least Finally let's talk about the pain we've already touched upon right which can obviously Be very rewarding?

00:32:14: Maybe that's not really understandable unless you're an academic and you spend the best years Of your life on a PhD.

00:32:21: Yeah, but that's also what I'm always trying to teach my students.

00:32:24: Right?

00:32:24: The beauty of frustration the allure of confusion All the way up until this amazing moment.

00:32:30: yet there are certain tips you give To make This painful journey a bit more joyful right and i actually wish i had A book back then to tell me More because more senior academics were Always like.

00:32:43: You'll figure it out for yourself.

00:32:45: Don't worry about It!

00:32:48: your own rhythm, right?

00:32:49: So you're books helps by giving advice on how to overcome and you call them the four Ds.

00:32:55: Distractions doubts difficulties and demotivation.

00:33:00: in The book You also talk us through where you preferred writing locations were write while writing this book certain coffee shops.

00:33:08: so if there's one mindset or One habit you hope we just take away from Your Book.

00:33:13: what would it be?

00:33:15: Yes, enjoying pain.

00:33:16: You make a sound of it.

00:33:18: Say don't ask a question!

00:33:21: But

00:33:21: people do that all the time right?

00:33:23: People train for marathons and then but you can watch a million videos on YouTube For people who run Marathons And show how hard It is.

00:33:32: and we're training for Marathon's and Show How Hard It Is.

00:33:35: researches they kind Of hide is they have these beautiful published books and these beautifully polished articles, And they don't say oh look about all the detours in their rabbit holes.

00:33:47: The hurdles that I encountered.

00:33:48: no!

00:33:48: They said this was what i planned.

00:33:50: Look it worked out wonderfully well.

00:33:53: We all know when.

00:33:54: through actually doing research.

00:33:55: we all know That isn't true.

00:33:57: so This Is why really use a lot of examples In the book Examples Of Published Articles Published Books.

00:34:05: But then the authors of these articles have been incredibly generous and we'd be so fortunate that they actually wanted to talk to us.

00:34:13: And, when asked them what was it really like?

00:34:17: And invariably they say oh I started out with a totally different research question.

00:34:20: then it changed all the way through!

00:34:22: And i wanted to collect this data... and then this thing happened and nobody wanted to.

00:34:27: So I think to show, so the equivalent of showing the marathon runner training for the marathon on YouTube are our author interview boxes.

00:34:39: But yes going back to what habits would we like readers take away from book?

00:34:47: Yes We do thank a lot of our acknowledgment.

00:34:50: or three and half pages And they include five coffee shops in a toy giraffe and Spotify playlists.

00:34:57: All these things that motivate.

00:35:00: So we have a lot of practical tips, right?

00:35:02: Research on highly cognitive high-cognitive involvement tasks.

00:35:06: It needs concentration.

00:35:07: how do you do that work in sprints?

00:35:10: our way to working sprints was the go away too like little cottage somewhere and really worked very hard on the same thing for week.

00:35:17: but Of course sprint is also like forty five minute por medoro timer Concentrated bit of work.

00:35:24: break the process into parts.

00:35:25: We always had posted notes, I said task a whole wall full of post-it notes and then we made little videos of ourselves moving to Post-It note from in progress column to the done column.

00:35:37: Reward yourself when achieving that milestone move that Post-IT node.

00:35:41: take yourselves out for coffee listen through your favorite music eat some chocolate all these things.

00:35:46: so you have lots with lots practical tips.

00:35:50: But in terms of what I hope the readers take away from this book most,

00:35:54: is

00:35:56: your work as not you.

00:35:57: Your self-worth is not dependent on your work.

00:36:03: or so bad about this and academia.

00:36:07: we even cite like when i want to argue against someone...I'm not saying ah!

00:36:13: This article that Anouk wrote at some point has flaws.

00:36:18: No, I'm saying Richtering twenty-twenty five is completely off!

00:36:22: Yeah it's even...it's your name in there.

00:36:25: It's being directly critiqued.

00:36:28: So we're so bad at this and academia to separate our work from ourselves.

00:36:32: And i think students have the same problem right?

00:36:35: They are a student.

00:36:37: they are meant to do This..so I think separate your work From you.

00:36:41: if You get feedback take that as Feedback on Your Work.

00:36:46: What is on paper?

00:36:47: Not, uh... On your person.

00:36:51: Your capabilities and abilities.

00:36:53: I think that's my most important takeaway.

00:36:56: Yeah we don't want to turn into these little research robots.

00:37:01: There are plenty of research robots who are vying for their space.

00:37:04: It doesn't need us.

00:37:06: But also building this.

00:37:11: Well, this curating of your own research experience I think is really interesting.

00:37:15: Right?

00:37:15: Because people think a lot about how they curate their lives now and their experiences... ...and what they show to the audience so on!

00:37:22: And yeah..I'm a big fan of curating my own work experience….

00:37:26: …and it does have to do with picking a location in my case.

00:37:30: Yes absolutely picking a playlist that kind-of know as my trigger when i hear those first few music.

00:37:37: notes and I go, okay.

00:37:38: Now need to work.

00:37:39: this is what's happening.

00:37:40: but of course the other really important thing in that is Find your people like really find you're people too Moan together with when something has hard or two exchange papers And say can you eat?

00:37:53: This am i?

00:37:54: Am I making sense?

00:37:56: um Or just do actually sit like what we did inviting the book right sit with each Other In The Same Room not talk to each other for an hour, and then look up and go coffee.

00:38:07: And have a coffee and then go back to it.

00:38:09: finding your people is really important.

00:38:12: It's

00:38:13: very easy to forget that because research has been so trying.

00:38:16: this as the solitary exercise put you name on it.

00:38:20: but one last thing.

00:38:23: One of our friends who read in early drafts said I like the four D's.

00:38:28: they're useful.

00:38:28: distractions doubt difficulties and demotivation.

00:38:33: Can you add an S to it for show up?

00:38:36: Because actually the first step, all of this is show-up.

00:38:41: Show up and listen!

00:38:42: Show up in class.

00:38:43: Show out what your colleagues have to say by doing their readings.

00:38:48: just showing up with a process that you need take yourself through.

00:38:53: think about as really like exercise right?

00:38:56: Exercise has never worn off.

00:38:57: It's not going give benefits The Tuesday morning run, that you felt really not in the mood for doing.

00:39:05: That's going to be a piece of energy... ...that maybe draw on three months later because you did it.

00:39:10: so find people and show up.

00:39:14: When I said three-and-a-half page acknowledgment at least one page like this is like a platonic lot letter from Marek to me and vice versa Because i think In the end what God has to write?

00:39:29: Together, I'm what motivated us is all these collaborations.

00:39:34: Yeah and that makes me a bit emotional to hear but it's true!

00:39:37: It's very true.

00:39:39: Now this has been such an insightful account And we can't wait To read the book.

00:39:46: Thank you so much for talking through All of This And thank you So Much.

00:39:51: Both Of You

00:39:52: Read The Book.